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The madness of ignorance

I don't know if he's trying, and there's no definitive way to figure it out. This is a problem.

When I started this piece, it was going to be my last shot at hunting down the white whale of my football fandom. As you've gathered from listening to Fusillade and probably reading my posts and comments on here, I'm somewhat an Andrei Arshavin fan. It's a lonely place these days, as he's kind of crap. I acknowledge that and do my best not to get too upset when he screws something up and the match thread here explodes in Meerkat rage. He misplaces passes, he dribbles into a stout defense when he shouldn't (which is most of the time), and oftentimes he just falls over, which looks silly and isn't altogether helpful. I get all of that, I see it, and I'm not ignoring it.

What I don't get is the accusations of laziness - I just don't see it. In the pilot episode of Fusillade, Aidan and I compared him to Carlos Beltran, who I think suffers from a similar malady. It doesn't matter how hard he tries, it always looks like he's gliding, bored with whatever he's doing. It's not quite the same with Arshavin (mostly because he doesn't succeed like Beltran usually does/did), but close enough that the comparison is apt, I think.

If you've been paying attention there's another thing you've likely picked up on about me; I'm a huge baseball fan, particularly of the Mets. A big part of why I found The Short Fuse is because I have long been an avid reader (and commenter) of Amazin' Avenue, SB Nation's Mets blog. The community there is heavily skewed toward sabermetric analysis, which if you aren't a baseball basically fan means that they like using evidence (typically statistical evidence, and often advanced stats at that) to prove points rather than just making things up.

While it's not relevant in all cases in all sports, I've tried to carry that philosophy over to my other spheres of influence as often as I possibly can - if I'm going to make a claim, if at all possible, I try to make sure that it can be backed up with some kind of evidence or experience or something other than saying "well, I think that's what happened, so it's what happened."

I know that the hypothesis "Arshavin does work hard" would be tough to definitively prove or disprove without analyzing statistics and actually spending some time with the club and with him specifically, but I thought that there would be enough statistical evidence one way or the other to at least start a reasonable conversation, if not enough to definitively prove anything. And that is where I was wrong.

Star-divide

I'll lay out my methodology for you, first of all. I figured that the technical opposite of "laziness" was "involvement in the game," which I figured I'd measure by tracking various measures and comparing them with some of his competitors for playing time. The idea was, if he was moving around and playing on and off the ball, that would be a good way to determine an effort level. It wasn't going to be a scientifically strenuous thing or anything like that, but I figured it would be better than what we'd done before. I planned on looking at things like passes attempted, dribbles attempted, tackles attempted, and ground covered - things that would show what he tried to do in a game rather than what he successfully did. Remember, the hypothesis wasn't that Arshavin is underrated, it's that Arshavin tries and fails because he has lost his ability to affect games. Ground covered was particularly important because it could be looked at as evidence of what he did off the ball - anyone can pass, but movement when you don't have the ball in an effort to get in position to get the ball shows an effort.

The problem is that while I could find a bunch of that data - passes and dribbles and tackles are pretty easily located - and while that's all helpful and could function as a part of an argument one way or the other, the main part of it was going to be based around ground covered during games. Like I said, what better argument for effort than the old standard, running about like a human dynamo! Does Arshavin do this? Who knows!

I asked Orbinho, everyone's favorite Arsenal-fan-cum-statistician, about it, and according to him Opta doesn't do distance stats, but clubs do (secretly, of course). It is very occasionally published. A couple of times in the past, I've come across people on Twitter who somehow have access to these numbers, and I've brought them up before, so I know they exist. I think, based on what little I've heard, that they may back me up, but I would at the very least like to be well-informed so that if I'm wrong, I can shut up and move on with my life.

*A case in my favor: after finally finding the UEFA press kits (well, Ted found them, but still), I scoured them for the coveted "ground covered" statistics. They're not found there. The only place you can get them is on the MatchCentre of individual Champions League matches. You can compare one player on one team to one on the opposition. You can't compare a player to a teammate, nor to himself or a teammate in a different game. So in short, the information is difficult-to-impossible to find, and nearly impossible to use for anything productive. It wouldn't be out of bounds for the less bulldoggish among us to think they are mythical lost objects, like the Holy Grail, the Ark of the Covenant, or Carlos Vela. Since half the battle with stats is presenting them in a way that people can understand, this isn't a lot better than having nothing at all.

Obviously all teams have the right to have their own statistical models and keep them secret. That happens in all sports; for example I know that the Red Sox have had proprietary defensive statistics for years that they do not share (except that now, presumably, Theo Epstein has taken them to the Cubs, but that's neither here nor there). What annoys me is that there's nothing but proprietary stats in football, it seems like. Sure we get the simple stuff and maybe a little more than that, but we don't have anything available to the fans that's really that advanced. Opta has stuff that they leak out little by little, but there's not really a database that we (well, in this case I) would have access to.

I'll compare it to baseball - admittedly that's a tad unfair, as it's statistically probably the most advanced sport for various reasons that aren't important here, but it's the one outside of football that I know the best. In football we have goals, assists, saves, save percentage, and things like that. That's the approximate equivalent of home runs, RBIs, errors, and fielding percentage. Those are the least useful predictive and analytical statistics in all of baseball, and most of the time if people try to make points only using these statistics, you have my permission to laugh at them (particularly errors. And don't get me started on pitcher wins). Then we have things like what I mentioned above - passing attempts, tackle attempts, interceptions, stuff like that. I think the best comparison there is the on-base percentage, slugging percentage, ERA, WHIP family; it tells you a bit more than the lowest level statistics, but not quite enough still to be able to cogently predict future outcomes or really deeply analyze what's happening to a team or player.

The big problem is that in baseball, there's another level above that, with metrics like WAR (wins above replacement) and xFIP and wOBA that most non-baseball fans haven't even heard of, and many fans even don't understand. They're not perfect, obviously, because nothing that I'm aware of is perfect, but judging hitters based on wOBA (weighted on-base average, if you were wondering) or pitchers based on xFIP (expected fielding-independent pitching) is in almost every situation better than batting average or ERA, and degrees better than simply using home runs and wins. There's nothing like that in football, at least not that we the fans know about.

*There are good reasons for that; namely, the fact that baseball's easier to analyze because it's a series of discrete events involving individual matchups, while football is a constantly moving game involving interplay of multiple actors performing simultaneously. On the other hand, there's a fairly healthy advanced statistical community in basketball (a usually-moving game involving interplay of multiple actors performing simultaneously), which leads me to believe that it's possible to do it in football as well.

My point is not that Arsene Wenger should hold a series of seminars detailing his methods of analysis. Clubs should keep their business their own, and not risk giving other clubs a leg up. That's fine. But there ought to be a Fangraphs or a Baseball Reference for football, a free resource that all people can use to get access to the best information possible. More importantly, though, those sites serve as forums where new ideas can be presented to an educated public and debated, and knowledge of the game can grow. They don't just have spreadsheets full of stats - though the glories of the Fangraphs player pages must be seen to be believed - Fangraphs also has a host of regular writers who do some great analytical work. Fangraphs analyzes individual players, the entire range of major leaguers, and even the economy. The closest thing to that for football is Who Scored, and surely the other baseball fans here will back me up on this - it's not that close (for example I just tried to look up some statistics from Arsenal 1-0 Leeds to make a point on another SB Nation post, and WHOSCORED DOESN'T EVEN HAVE FA CUP STATS). There's also EPLIndex.com, but as far as I can tell, you have to pay a subscription fee to gain access to any of the statistical data they have. They do have a blog somewhat similar to what Fangraphs has, but it's nowhere near the quality.

I guess my point is this: there are football statistics, and there are fledgling communities for them, but we can do a lot better than we are.

--------------

The title of this piece is "The madness of ignorance," and I think I should explain that. When I say "ignorance" I don't mean it in the way it's typically used (in other words, stupidity). What I mean is simply a lack of knowledge, which is a wholly different thing. If an incredibly intelligent person speaks without information, he is operating in a state of ignorance despite that personal intelligence. We're all pretty ignorant when it comes to football whether or not we're willing to admit it, because of this dearth of objective data. We've all got opinions, and we make do with what we have - here, I think Aidan does a particularly good job of analyzing tactics with the tools available - but without a significant amount of legitimate data, it's really hard to tell what's accurate and what's not. Without people publicly working on this stuff, with an informal (or even formal) peer-review process like baseball has developed, it's really hard to develop good analytical tools, and without those, it's hard to know what's going on, really.

And honestly that upsets me. I hate seeing an argument that I think I could easily disprove, if only I knew this, this and this, then when I go looking for that information it's harder to find than Wellington Silva (sidebar: I forgot he existed until this morning). Not having data makes smart people say and think things that might be crazy, and it really annoys me to see that. Sources do exist, but I really wish that as a football community, there was a better way to develop, discuss, and present that knowledge publicly, in the open. There would be a little less ignorance - and madness - from all of us.

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Nice post

I use EPLIndex and the nice thing is that the subscription isn’t terribly expensive (I think I paid about $100 for the season). They don’t satisfy your “ground covered” need but it does feel like I have at least some basis for confirming my opinions about players (or having them proven wrong).

In any event, I agree with your premise that it would be great to have more information but as long as Opta has what is in essence a monopoly on the data, there isn’t much motivation to free it up. I’m actually stunned that EPLIndex is allowed to exist. If I were Opta, I’d squelch that thing in a second to protect the premium price I’m extorting from traditional media outlets and clubs.

www.NeverManageAlone.com

by Neal Thurman on Jan 13, 2012 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, you're certainly right

Opta has an economic interest in monopolizing the data, and to be clear, I’m not accusing them of any wrongdoing by any means. I just wish that in addition to that, there was more of a grassroots community like there is in baseball.

I’d start one myself, but I’m spectacularly amateur as a mathematician. So I figured I’d write about it instead.

WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY

I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.

Twitter: Brohan_Cruyff

by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 13, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

How/why does Opta have such a monopoly on the data?

by DarrenV on Jan 13, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Because they compile it all

No one else really compiles / collects it.

by KC Gunner on Jan 13, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

So anyone could, they just don’t.
That’s not really a monopoly and cannot see how Opta could squash that, other than offering them wages to work for them.

by DarrenV on Jan 13, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

It's mostly manpower, I'd assume.

In the early days of sabermetrics, they’d have basically a phone tree of people who would hand-compile statistics to build the early databases. So we could do that.

That sounded really mythological, unintentionally.

WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY

I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.

Twitter: Brohan_Cruyff

by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 13, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct

And whoever made the point was using the term monopoly somewhat colloquially. That said, the actual point is that high barriers to entry exist insofar as Opta pays dozens and dozens of people as analysts to record all of these data points from every match in the Premier League (and other leagues), and matching that infrastructure would be rather difficult for any prospective entrant to the field of football statistics. Opta also have a solid first-mover’s advantage in already have contracts in place with just abotu every potential customer (leagues, clubs) for their information, so even if a potential competitor could put together sufficient resources to begin compiling comparable data, it would be difficult for the potential competitor to find customers and make any money.

by KC Gunner on Jan 13, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

It would be fairly difficult to accurately catalog things in soccer.

I mean, sure, some stats are easy, like goals, shots, saves, etc. But things like ground covered can’t be measured on the TV. And unless you have Messi boots, the players don’t carry pedometers. So I think it’s pretty easy for Opta to keep their monopoly up. I mean, who else would want to/ be able to go to so many games and document what happens?

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 3:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree completely

I get very frustrated by the lack of advanced statistics in soccer since they are so useful in baseball. I think that soccer is probably more complicated to analyze than baseball, so that’s probably barrier # 1.

However, given the usefulness of advanced stats and the popularity of soccer, I can’t believe there hasn’t been someone who could do for soccer what Bill James did for baseball.

by Loose Seal on Jan 13, 2012 4:28 PM EST reply actions  

The thing about basketball is, the results of each possession are infinitly higher than they are for football. Each NBA team rountinely have something like 80 shots a game, and shooting at 40% give you 32 completions per game. So something is always being recorded for each match.

Football is more of a chess-match, where patient passing is used as a tool to open and exploit mistakes in a defense. One a team-by-team basis, I find using which 1/3rd of the pitch the passes are being located in can tell us alot about how strong a club is because it’s much harder to pass at a high rate in the oppostion’s side of the pitch.

But this still doesn’t satisfy a player-by-player comparison. Football is light-years behind most American sports in this regard.

by DarrenV on Jan 13, 2012 4:32 PM EST reply actions  

This is true

but I didn’t want to bog the column down with all of it. Basketball is somewhere between soccer and baseball, in terms of how easy it would be to develop this stuff.

WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY

I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.

Twitter: Brohan_Cruyff

by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 13, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Also,

players playing the same position on different teams (and even on the same team after a substitution) don’t necessarily have the same responsibilities. A right fielder does the same thing for the Yankees, for the Mets, for the Royals, as does the cleanup hitter. Some quarterbacks are better runners, but in general, they and running backs and safeties all do the same thing as do point guards and big forwards in basketball.

Chamakh, RVP, Messi, Drogba, are a central forwards but each are very distinct from each other and thus very difficult to compare.

Captain, there are doubt''s...

by Match Day 5 on Jan 13, 2012 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Rajon Rondo, Darren Collison, Derrick Rose and Chris Paul are all very different; all play the same position.

Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, and Blake Griffin are all power forwards. The more I think about it, the more similar I think basketball and soccer are.

On the other hand, you’re mostly right about baseball and football, though honestly the differences in hitting between positions are restricted to “first basemen are better at it than second basemen” and things like that.

WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY

I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.

Twitter: Brohan_Cruyff

by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 13, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Basketball IS fairly similar to soccer

At least in terms of how it’s played. I am crap at basketball. However, things like getting into open space and backtracking are easy for me because I’ve played so much soccer. However, that doesn’t help me much when I can’t make a single shot.
I would like to point out that the concept of the game is exactly the opposite of soccer. You use nothing but hands.

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 4:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough, I haven't watched basketball in 15 years

But i still think that you don’t see as wide a variation between positions/styles as you see in soccer. Plus, you always have 5 v. 5 and no ties so there is really no such thing as a purely defensive or counterattacking style of play in basketball. In soccer these are common, highly effective styles at all levels of the game.

Captain, there are doubt''s...

by Match Day 5 on Jan 14, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

What is really annoying

is how UEFA degraded the usefulness of the ground covered figures. In prior seasons, it used to be that every player’s meters covered could be displayed at once. Now, as you note, you can only look at 1 or 2 players at a time. What a ridiculous degradation of their content.

Also on meters covered, I recall an article last year in the Telegraph, I think, that discussed Gareth Bale’s meters covered in the Premier League (as well as his meters covered at a sprint, vs meters covered at a jog (ie jogging up for a corner kick)) after one of his good Champions League performances. It was incredibly frustrating to learn such extremely interesting information exists but is generally kept under wraps unless someone who has it feels like doling out a nugget or two to a journalist.

by KC Gunner on Jan 13, 2012 4:34 PM EST reply actions  

This is good stuff

(Amazin’ Avenue is the only non-Lookout Landing SBN baseball site I spend any time on)

I go back and forth on this stuff as well, and your comparison to basketball is apt. I think for me at least, the main difference between soccer and basketball as far as statistical analysis goes is that the statistics in basketball (and I’m neither a huge follower of basketball nor very knowledgeable about basketball stats) are easier to directly relate to an action than they are in soccer.

Please, anybody with more knowledge jump in, but here’s my thought process: If a point guard is standing outside the three point line and sees a player cutting through the lane, it’s easy to say that there is an X% chance that pass will lead to a basket. In soccer, if a central midfielder gets the ball right behind the half way line and makes a successful pass to another midfielder to his right, that pass might or might not ever mean anything; that other midfielder could then make a pass that’s intercepted, or goes out of touch, or pass it back to his own keeper.

So how do you assign a value to the initial pass? It was successful in the academic sense in that it got from A to B correctly, but that fact doesn’t tell us anything significant about the passer. That, to me, is the central problem with developing advanced metrics – weighting individual events is extremely hard, because soccer is almost the opposite of baseball in that there are far fewer discrete events. Everything depends on everything else (except perhaps penalty kicks).

I have always wondered to what use “ground covered” numbers could be put, as well – it’s not like if you cover X amount of ground you’re likely to be a better player, or if you only cover Y amount and score Z number of goals you’re more efficient.

I don’t have answers to any of these things, they’re just addendums to what you think about.

by pdb on Jan 13, 2012 4:53 PM EST reply actions  

The best ground covered #s

are those that show how many meters were covered at a sprint-type pace. This article gives some tantalizing general numbers about the Premier League:


Bale covered a distance of 12 kilometres, the longest of any player on the pitch on Tuesday. While that figure is not remarkable – the average for Premier League games is 11.7k – it is Bale’s sprinting that raised eyebrows at Tottenham’s Chigwell training headquarters.
The distances run by players are broken into categories and the telling statistics relating to the Welshman’s contribution surround his high-speed figures.
Of his 12k, Bale ran a remarkable 1,114 metres at a ‘high intensity’ pace, a speed measured at 21k per hour or more.
When one considers the Premier League average is 691m at such a speed, the pace of the 21 year-old suddenly becomes apparent.

by KC Gunner on Jan 13, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Two things:

1. The plays you described weren’t really equivalent. The basketball play you described was more like (for example) Song’s pass to Henry vs. Leeds. The point guard (Song) put the cutter (Henry) in a position to score, then you determine the percentage chance of scoring. But you’re right in that the differences between football and basketball increase the difficulty level. I only brought up basketball because it’s more similar to football than baseball is, and close enough that I find it instructive.

2. Ground covered could be used to gauge effort (at least I think so, hence the genesis of this article), determine injury causes and fatigue levels, or even just compare players’ styles, I guess. Maybe if we had that information we’d know better!

WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY

I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.

Twitter: Brohan_Cruyff

by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 13, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it would be that difficult to create WAR for soccer IF you had the data

Start by assigning point values for each kind of positive/negative action a player can make and where on the pitch they make it, such as:

5 points – Goal
3 points – Assist
3 points – Drawing a penalty
2 points – Penalty goal scored
2 points – 2nd assist (pass leading to the assist, like hockey)
1 point – Every previous pass leading up to the assist
1 point – Every kilometer ran
1 point – Every Shot (on goal)
1 point – Drawing a corner or free kick in the attacking 1/3
.7 point – Every pass completed in the penalty area
.5 point – Every shot (not on goal)
.5 point – Every pass completed in the attacking 1/3
.5 point – Holding possession for more than 5 seconds in attacking 1/3
.5 point – Having possession (for any length of time) in the penalty area
.5 point – Dribbling past a defender
.5 point – Blocking the opponent’s shot
.2 point – Every pass completed in the mid 1/3
.2 point – Every successful tackle/interception of a pass in defending 1/3
.2 point – Every successful pass/dribble moving ball from midfield 1/3 to attacking 1/3
.1 point – winning a 50/50 header or tackle
-.1 point – losing a 50/50 header or tackle
-.2 point – Conceding possession in attacking 1/3
-.3 point – Conceding possession in midfield 1/3
-.5 point – Conceding possession in defending 1/3
-.5 point – Getting dribbled past in the defending 1/3
-1 point – Conceding a free kick/corner in defending 1/3
-2 points – Conceding a penalty

That’s 27 categories, and a full list could probably have up to 50, but 30 might be enough for an accurate estimate. And the point values should be tinkered with to accurately reflect what value each action actually has on the end-result of the game. But yeah, it’d be really fun to tinker with those numbers on a speadsheet IF they were available. It wouldn’t be that difficult to collect all those stats, just super time-consuming.

by Loose Seal on Jan 13, 2012 10:05 PM EST reply actions  

The problem isn't necessarily identifying the actions

it’s determining which ones directly add or subtract to the team’s win probability, and how much. Which, as you said, would take a lot of tinkering and even more math. You’d have to have an enormous amount of past game data to be able to accurately deduce it (to get the sample size large enough to have a convincing answer). This is why someone like Opta would be useful, they have the manpower and technology and information for such an undertaking.

WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY

I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.

Twitter: Brohan_Cruyff

by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 13, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

380 games per year in the EPL

Roughly 100 minutes per game
38000 minutes = 633 hours = 12 hours/wk

Conclusion: The Short Fuse needs to hire an intern…maybe two for accuracy’s sake.

by Loose Seal on Jan 13, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

You’d need to spend time re-watching segments of the game to make sure you caught everything. In ice hockey, certain rinks are rather infamous in the analysis community for incorrectly recording things as basic as shots on target. And they’re experts.

Given the need to watch and re-watch, you’d also need video footage of all those games. The Short Fuse needs a Russian oligarch more than an intern.

by jiduthie on Jan 14, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

we should really get some oil money

screw sustainability

WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY

I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.

Twitter: Brohan_Cruyff

by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 14, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Everybody start digging!

Captain, there are doubt''s...

by Match Day 5 on Jan 14, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No, this is completely the wrong way of doing it

The weights of events should fall out of the data. We should not assume any weights before hand. Start with a game start, work from there.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 14, 2012 2:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree, you can't just simply assign arbitrary points to be able to make predictions/criticisms.

Soccer doesn’t work like that. Each game is different in terms of what is meaningful. For example, if Arsenal is playing against, say Chelsea, and we are winning 3-2, and then concede a PK, that would be much different then if a PK were conceded to, maybe, Stoke while the game is 0-0. Each pass, each cross, each shot cannot accurately be measured against another in terms of importance. In addition, each of these stats will be different based on the opponents style of play. Arsenal are going to run a lot more, a lot faster against Barcelona then a team that merely parks the bus.
In addition, no singular action will constitute a victory in soccer. If you stream together these actions, yes, you might be able to figure out who is the winner. However, often times, especially in upsets, the figures don’t reflect the outcome. What comes do mind is Switzerland v Spain in 2010 World Cup. Spain thrashes the Swiss in numbers, but lose.
In contrast, this doesn’t happen in basketball. Because it’s such a fast paced, high scoring game, a team actually has to outplay their opponent in order to win. Even if they only outplay them for a few of the last minutes, they must out play them. In soccer, one can keep getting hammered at goal, but keep everything from going into the net, and then pick up a goal against the run of play. This comes down to so many factors that can’t be predicted, nor analyzed, at least not objectively.

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 4:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree for the most part, but surely it’s tougher to complete passes closer to the opposition’s goal than it is at the halfway line, and that should be noted, no?

by DarrenV on Jan 14, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Well that's still missing the point

Which pass in the box is the essential one? And does it even matter if it goes to someone who fails to score? In which case, is a pass to RvP worth more?
Because you have to look at so many things, some of them intangible, you can’t compare them.
I will give a personal example. I’ve played soccer my whole life, most of which, I sucked. In middle school, I started playing back-up keeper. Well, the regular keeper got sick so I played an entire game against the best team in the league. We had quarters, so every quarter, we’d switch sides on the pitch. On one side, I kept them from scoring at all. On the other, they ripped me to shreds. On my good side, I made great saves. Why couldn’t I do that on the other side? Do you blame the pitch, or is it simply bad luck that all shots I couldn’t save came on that side? Or was I not actually that good a keeper and got lucky a lot?
Which is the right answer? I don’t know. I don’t know which save was more important to make. All I know is that it’s extremely pleasing to save a goal with the back of your heel.

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Intangible elements are incredibly important

One of the major criticisms of advanced stats is that they fail to account for intangibles. However, the beauty of advanced stats is that they’re totally objective. They get rid of the bias.

I think all the media pundits would continue to remind us of how “clutch” and “important” certain players are, but the advanced stats can give us something more objective to judge them on

by Loose Seal on Jan 14, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

The essential one? You’re looking at it from a result-based metric, not from performance-based. The idea is you want to have the ball in the most threatening areas of the pitch as much as possible to create as many chances as possible.

If you are passing the ball at half all game long, it’s highly unlikely you are going to be creating a high volume of scoring chances, and raising your likelihood of scoring.

If you are passing the ball deep in the opposition half for most of the match, and in the box, you are significantly raising your odds that you can create more scoring chances and therefore my of a likelihood of scoring goals.

Now this doesn’t mean you will win, or score more goals or even create more chances is specific matches, but in the long run you will see in the numbers that you are doing so.

Also, amatuer sports are a poor comparison to the highest professional game as there is such a diveristy in talent in the amatuer game that it does matter who is getting the vital touches in dangerous areas. The difference in skill is much much smaller at the highest level as all players are extremely talented.

by DarrenV on Jan 14, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

The example has nothing to do with talent

There is a statistical problem related found in this soccer game. On one half of the pitch, I sucked, on the other, I was awesome. What is the reasoning? That is the question, what are you going to analyze? The pitch? The lineups? etc. This example translates because it has nothing to do with skill, all the same physics of a pro game are all there.
Any way, you are not looking at the kind of stats that we are looking for. Of course every team wants the ball in the final third. And of course that corresponds with chances. However, we, or at least I, am more interested in how we get there. And that is why we are discussing stats in the form of individual acts, by player.

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Anyway, that was my exact question that prompted this section of this discussion, and you replied.

by DarrenV on Jan 14, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, exactly this.

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by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 15, 2012 3:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I feel that statistics are not especially important in soccer.

At least not in individual games. I must say, I am currently reading Soccernomics, which is a soccer book devoted to statistics. However, these stats look at long term trends rather then game-by-game results. And I think that is where it is useful. If you look at a player’s stats like Arshavin’s distance covered and then compare it to, say Benayoon (comes on as a sub and often goes to a wing) then you will be able to get an idea of how much he is contributing to the team. In addition, this can be useful when looking at candidates for a transfer. In this case, one should not go for the highest stats, but rather, the one with the stats that most match the team. Moving a passer to Stoke, for example, would probably not go over well. That said, I must again stress that there is an intangible nature of soccer that is combined with it’s low scoring tendencies that make it extremely difficult if not impossible to be able to reach an accurate conclusion.

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 4:27 AM EST reply actions  

There has been a long history of people claiming that a problem is too complex for an answer. The history of people proving the previous people wrong is only short enough for them to come up with more questions.

by jiduthie on Jan 14, 2012 4:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Jiduthie's or mine?

Does his problem in this case refer to applying stats to soccer?

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's how I would put it

extremely difficult if not impossible to be able to reach an accurate conclusion.

I was with you until the word “accurate”. In my mind, and I am not nearly as statistically advanced in other sports as some here, it’s more “extremely difficult if not impossible to reach a useful conclusion”. Things in soccer can be easily quantified – my question is, to what end is that quantified data used? This is where the whole “soccer is not a game of discrete events” gets in my head and won’t leave.

If you have a baseball player who has historically hit really well against right hand pitchers when behind in the count, you can reasonably surmise that he will get hits against RHP in the future. With a soccer player, though, how do you assess the value of, say, an accurate passer relative to an average passer, when his accurate pass may in fact lead to nothing at all because the player he passed to put the ball out or turns it over? Obviously you want a more accurate passer, but it’s not like having one accurate passer is going to make the difference between relegation and a European place.

There is indeed value in teasing out these statistics, I’m just not sure yet what their application is. But it’ll come.

by pdb on Jan 14, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Over a long period of time, you can develop certain useful stats

Like where a keeper goes for PK, or which team’s will be most likely to win. You can also detect such things as over-all discrimination. But in a short term scenario, I think that you are right, there are no obvious uses for some of of these stats, even if you could get them.

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, advanced stats are pretty useless for only one game

But when you start getting an entire season’s worth of data, a player’s true value comes out. hypothetically, at least.

by Loose Seal on Jan 14, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, even then, it's still going to be difficult to draw conclusions

Since this article is about Arshavin, though tangently, I’ll use him as an example. His first year, brilliant. Second, flashes. Third, not so much. So, for an average, he’s a decent player. However, he was a decent player in average, not so much now (hate admitting it). There are also issues on role in the team, overall team style, outside factors like the Euros etc.

by Adnan Ilyas on Jan 14, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely, but you can start adding factors like aging curves, positional analysis, etc.

The predictive value of these stats is never gonna be 100% accurate, but I gotta think that they could help us (1) appreciate what a player has done and (2) predict a likely range of what he will do in the future.

by Loose Seal on Jan 14, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I like this post.

I’m a baseball first fan, and if anyone has ever spent time on McCovey Chronicles, you know we love our sabermetrics. Having just really started following the EPL in the last year or so, I was wondering whether there were more advanced statistics being utilized.

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by GrahamCrakalaka on Jan 14, 2012 6:52 AM EST reply actions  

For me, it's not how he looks

It’s his refusal to track back and provide any type of defensive support from the wings. Whether that’s a result of laziness or just sheer inability on defense, I don’t know. I agree with the general premise of the article though and I know I’ve been guilty of accusing him of being lazy when his poor play may not have actually been a result of it. He does give off an optical illusion of laziness though.

by LouisMurphy'sLaw on Jan 14, 2012 10:41 AM EST reply actions  

i used to wonder if he was lazy or just not capable of tracking back

And at this point my conclusion is he just doesn’t have the stamina to track back with any consistency.

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by silverace99 on Jan 14, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

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