Fusillade VI: Everything Was Beautiful and Nothing Hurt
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 10:00 AM EST
in Fusillade, An Arsenal Podcast
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Okay, so maybe the first half wasn't all that beautiful, and I'm sure Per Mertesacker's ankle hurts quite a bit, but if I get a chance to quote Kurt Vonnegut, I'll do it even if it's not all that relevant. You know what to do.
So this week the main focus is Sunderland, since we played against them this weekend and will again this coming weekend. It's an odd quirk of scheduling that could get even odd-er if Arsenal draw, as the replay would be three days later. We'll talk about all that, though.
Also discussed was the upcoming Champions League visit to AC Milan at the San Siro. We talk a bit about how we think Arsene Wenger should attack the three competitions we're still involved in, and predict the outcome of the match. Ted has a premonition, which certainly outstrips the idle speculation you usually find on Fusillade. It's a welcome change.
Since Saturday was (almost certainly this time) Thierry Henry's final Premier League match for Arsenal, we also attempted to give him an appropriate send-off, or something resembling that. And somewhere in there I gloat about predicting Henry's three goals a few weeks ago. Well I said "two or three." Same thing, right?
ALSO: Don't forget that we have an e-mail address that you can use to send us questions and receive life-altering answers. It's fusilladecast@gmail.com. So...yeah, hit that up.
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Comments
The difference between the Terry incident and the Mertesacker incident
is that Terry was clearly uninjured ans Mertesacker clearly was.
Chuck Norris doesn't need a bat.
he just roundhouse kicks the ball out of the park.
by bearcatcardfan on Feb 14, 2012 10:39 AM EST reply actions
Eh
if one of our guys had been fooled in a similar situation, I would be upset.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I love the look on Thierry's face
“Yes, everybody, I also know these shirts are awful, but I’m forced to wear them”
If someone could photoshop a horse under that picture, and a helmet and goggles on King Henry
I’d be one very grateful man.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
I happen to like the shirt quite a lot.
SBN Bloglist:
The Short Fuse (Arsenal, EPL)
Sactown Royalty (Kings, NBA)
I think these away kits are fantastic.
You want horrid, how about Barca’s aways?
On a side note, I absolutely loathe last years yellow away kits … and got one as a gift (personalized with my name and number on it) from a teammate to wear as my keeper jersey when playing. It truly was a great and thoughtful gift, he had no idea of my opinion on the shirt.
So … I know wear the kit I loathe. Good times. ;)
Alex Song - Krunk as Fuck!
It's an Arsenal away, it should be yellow. All is well with the world. Well, was.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
I very much prefer blue
Keep the yellow as a third kit
Blue is Chelsea. Not acceptable. Fuck Nike
/stream of consciousness
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Look at the history of Arsenal kits and then tell me that blue aways are not a Nike invention.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
I have no incentive
I don’t care if it’s because of Nike or not. It’s a color. Blue happens to be on the crest, and I rather prefer how it looks to the yellow.
by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 14, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
On the corporate crest since 2003.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/the-arsenal-crest
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
I see nothing about Nike
There is a bigger case to argue that the blue is because of Emirates then the sports wear.
And it’s still a color. It’s not the same hue as the ones from Chelsea, and I still like the design.
by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 14, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
We are both entitled to an opinion, now, aren't we?
So let’s leave it at that
by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 14, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
The Emirates logo is red.
It’s blue, it’s Chelsea, it’s shit.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
The kit is blue, that is.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
Everton also wears blue
And don’t the Red Bulls have a blue jersey?
by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 14, 2012 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
The point being Arsenal's colors historically are red, white, yellow, and a case could be made for blackcurrant or maroon
Arsenal are not Everton, the Red Bulls, or anybody else. Arsenal are red and white shirts and white shorts at home, and yellow shirts and blue shorts away.
I may be a cranky old man, but I have always firmly believed that people should adapt to teams’ color schemes, not the other way around. Team colors should be sacrosanct, not subject to the whims of a Nike and the tastes of the world. They have to mean something, otherwise why have them in the first place? There is no need for team apparel (official or otherwise) to be available in every color known to man.
by pdb on Feb 15, 2012 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What does the color green mean
What about lavender? Beige?
They are just freaking colors.
by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 15, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
To bring it closer to home
Ask any Yankees fan if they’d like to have red in their jerseys. Navy blue and red. Just like the Red Sox colors. I’m sure you’d see a similar outrage.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 15, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
You'd probably get a similar reaction if you tried to plaster "FLY EMIRATES" across the front of a Yankee jersey
but we all seem to have survived that
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 15, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
True
But the introduction of jersey advertisements and changing of club identities (which I consider color to be a major component of that) are two different things.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 15, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
and I maintain that sticking a little stripe on a kit doesn't change shit
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 15, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't really consider the away/ 3rd jersey a major component of a team
It’s the red and the white sleeves. I don’t give a crap what our second and third look like as long as I like what they look like.
That's the thing, though
In the case of sports teams, they’re not just colors. They are the identity of a team – not just of Arsenal, but any sports team. Teams have colors and they have logos, and without that Arsenal, or any other team, might as well show up in a different color shirt every damn game.
The word “Uniform” has to have some sort of meaning.
Ha, this is funny.
Captain, there are doubt''s...
by Match Day 5 on Feb 14, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree with you guys on FA Cup vs CL
The FA Cup is more important in my opinion because it’s a trophy. You agree that we’re very unlikely to win the CL and a QF isn’t going to get us into it next year so why not reach for the FA cup? We can actually win it and a trophy is a lot better than a quarter final. We haven’t won anything in a while and it would be something tangible that we can hold up at the end of the season. We can still make the top four I think we should go for the cup.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 11:05 AM EST reply actions
I cannot agree
Trophies are nice, but you can’t sustain a club on trophies like you can on extra cash from the Champions League.
Do I like trophies? Hell yes. Do I hate money? Hell yes. Do I love the Cup? Hell yes. But trophies at the cost of long-term sustainability isn’t really an option. I know that Arsenal aren’t the next Portsmouth or Birmingham, but part of the reason they’re NOT is because they do things sustainably. Money from a Champions League quarterfinal is arguably more important than a bit of silver.
by Ted Harwood on Feb 14, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Me neither
Domestic cups are nice to win, but Arsenal is a club that bases its stature on how it stacks up to the continent. There are three domestic competitions (four if you want to count Community Shield) in which Arsenal can claim a trophy. There’s only one competition, the one that brings in the most money and gives it the biggest exposure – UCL Final is the most-watched sporting event in the world each year, more viewers than even the Super Bowl – and that’s the Champions League.
If it’s trophies the players want, I’m sure one of the mods can fashion out a nice Nicklas Bendtner Shield for them to hold and cherish.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see how it costs us long term sustainability
winning things has a bearing on the overall outlook of the club even if it’s just a domestic cup. How many of us said last season that winning the CC would’ve been boost mentally for a team who for the most part had won nothing or very little in their careers. It also boost the profile of the club in away that just making it the next round of the CL one year doesn’t we’re no longer Arsenal who haven’t won anything in X years. An FA cup wining season is better than a “Reached the QF in Europe season.” We’re not going to be in trouble without the qf money should we fail to reach that point. Even if we abandon the FA cup hopes and go all out against Milan there’s no guarantee that we progress. I’d much rather we go for silverware and focus on getting in CL next year.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
It wouldn't affect long-term sustainability for Arsenal, because we're well-run
I should have been more clear above—I simply don’t accept that a silver pot is the measure of success of a club. They’re nice, but a club can be successful and never win a single trophy, ever. I really feel that. I think obsession with silver is a luxury that most football clubs on earth simply don’t enjoy. The goal should be a sustained run of good finishes—silver is the cherry on top.
If we win it, I will go crazy, for sure, but I don’t consider Arsenal a FAILURE for not winning trophies. Never have.
by Ted Harwood on Feb 14, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think a team can be successful and "Never win anything"
I don’t know if that a hyperbole you’re using there but I disagree. A team can be sustainably run and not win but that’s not the point of the game. I’m not saying that we need to win every season but if we’ve got a good shot at winning then we should go for it. It’s not going to hurt us if we Milan knock us out especially if we have something else to show for it at the end of the season.
We’re not “most football clubs.” We’re not a midtable team we should be aiming for silverware. The League is out of our reach but we have a good shout for the FA Cup and we should go for it. I wouldn’t give up a trophy to advance to the next round of the Champions League yes there’s money in it but we can be in it next year the team makes money in other ways. We’re not in trouble without it like Chelsea are.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Tell that to the Board of Directors
I’m sure they won’t value another piece of silver to the millions of dollars forfeited from being knocked out early in the CL.
Take a look at this. There’s a pretty easy link to all those clubs in the top 20 and it’s 1) they’re rich and 2) they’re all CL teams. When prospective players are being woo’ed by clubs, these are generally the two main requirements (along with “How much are you paying me?”) when deciding where to play.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Getting knocked out in the 16 this year won't lower (much if at all)
our standing in the eyes of prospective players especially if we wend up with another trophy.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think most of the players we're "after"
care all that much about whether we win the FA Cup or not. At least not the non-British ones.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
But they do care if we're a team that capable of winning something anything
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
We are capable
we just…haven’t. I know you have to “prove” it, but I really think we can beat anyone, right now, today, with the team we have. Even Madrid. Even Barca.
I can see how people outside can watch our CC final performance last season
and how we finished and how we started and think we can’t we have to win something. If we’re following this sustainability model but aren’t trying to win what is it that we’re sustaining?
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
There's a difference between not trying to win and prioritizing competitions
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think doing our best to win the FA Cup
should rank lower than getting to the next round of the CL. If we were in a good position to win the CL I’d think differently but we’re not. One more round in that competition doesn’t mean a whole lot to me or the team in the long run. Certainly not more than an actual trophy.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe not to you or the team
that’s true. To the CLUB, though, once those Euros/Pounds Sterling start a-rollin’ in when we draw Barca next round…could be a different story.
Also, I sort of think winning the CL is about as viable as winning the FA Cup this year, but I recognize that that thought is a little bit insane, and my own personal shortcoming as a human being.
Think about it this way
For each round a team progresses, they make x million pounds. That x million pounds can be put to use to buy an Oxlade-Chamberlain. Or, the x million can be combined with the y million from the previous round and buy a player like Kos. That sounds pretty decent to me. FA Cup doesn’t do that.
Actually it does.
More cup matches = more home games = £££.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Not nearly as much as the money from CL
Plus, you aren’t necessarily assured the home games in Cup games
The point is, you can still get money from the Cup
It’s not as much or as guaranteed as the money from the CL. But it’s money.
I don’t really give a fuck about the money as long as the club keeps ticking over. I want to win shit.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
No way. Barca and Real are, as Rafa Márquez would say, on another level.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
We beat Barca last year
And Barca has been poor in the league compared to Real Madrid, who they always beat
I would be shocked if they'd be drawn in by "we finished fifth and lost in the round of 16 in the CL"
“but by God, we won the FA Cup! Europa League, here we come!”
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
Who says we have to finish 5th?
Even if we do, winning something will signify that the team is capable of wining something and being more than just ‘also rans.’ We had a very rough start and a poor January but next season (if we manage to keep RvP) we’ll be a more stable team, well capable of making the top 4. A prospective player should be able to see that if this team is able to win a title this year we’re doing better. I don’t know how much difference it makes to anyone outside the club at which point we go out of the CL unless it’s the final.
I think wining a trophy is more important to players like RvP and Theo than making it to the next round of the CL.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Let's flip this around
Birmingham City won the Carling Cup last year. By that definition, they’re capable.
They’re in the Championship. Are they more attractive than we are to potential recruits?
I realize that’s a bit of an extreme example, but still…like Thomas said, we have to prioritize….
If we were in danger of being relegated
I’d say put staying up ahead of the cup. But we’re not. We’re not talking top four finish vs FA Cup or top four finish vs CL quarter final it’s cup vs cup. We could win the FA Cup so I say go for it.
All we lose is a bit of money in our pockets that we probably won’t spend anyway besides we have a bunch saved up from the summer and it’s not like we get nothing for going out in the 16.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
So we lose money
And as a result, spend even less, right?
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
My point is it won't make a difference
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
My point is that the health of the club is based on how much revenue they can generate, not how many trophies they can win.
Agree to disagree. I won’t be upset if they win a trophy this year, though.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
I’m not arguing against them winning something, I just don’t think it’s the be-all-end-all for the club.
Yeah
I mean I’d be really happy if we did win the FA Cup, I’d just rather go deep in the Champions League. The draw could conceivably fall in such a way that if we beat Milan (stay with me here) and draw, say, APOEL Nicosia (if they beat Lyon), we could go to the semi-finals. That’s big.
If I’m a player, I look at that as a team where I might be the difference between the semis and the final. If I’m a player from outside of England, I probably don’t look at the FA Cup a whole lot, really. Though I admit for RvP and Walcott (etc.) winning the Cup might be bigger, but then it might not.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
HELLO HELLO MR WAKTALL
FIRST OF ALL DONT YOU KNOW THAT ROBIN VEN PERSSIE IS DUTCH WHY WOULD HE CARE ABOUT THE FA CUP MOR THAN ANYONE ELSE SECONDLY DONT YOU KNOW THAT THE FA CAUP IS THE OLDEST TROPHY IN HISTORY OF THE WORLD AND WE SHOULD ALWAYS WANT TO WIN THAT BECAUSE IT IS THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS AWAY MORE PRESTIGIUOS THAN THE LAME JONNY CUM LATELY CHAMPIONS LEAGUE THING THAT HAS NO HISTORY WHATSOEVER BEFORE ESPN HELLO HELLO CLEARLY WE WANT THE FA CUP WE WANT THE MANSHCEON NOT THE CONDO HELLO HELLO MR WAKTALL
by danawent on Feb 14, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
OK, now that's funny
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying that it should be
but I’m more comfortable setting a trophy as a goal than a QF even if it does come with a few million Euros.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
But that's not really the point
The club of course sets trophies as the goal. They’d be foolish not to. The point is that if they don’t achieve that goal, the club still considers a season to be successful if they make it reasonably far in the competitions they’re entered in – and not just because of money, but because that’s what they need to keep doing to be a long term success.
Don’t misunderstand – I would love it if Arsenal won every trophy every year. But where we differ is that if Arsenal go six years without a trophy, I’m OK with that as long as they’re maintaining a consistent standard of quality play that keeps them in the hunt.
And Arsenal have gone much, much, longer than six years without a trophy
They’re still the best sports team to ever happen to me.
If this goes on too much longer
we’re going to end up like Liverpool. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?
There you go I revealed my biggest fear.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Arsenal is not a club that would blindly support its racist forward
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
YOU NEVER KNOW!
I’m sure Liverpool never thought they would either when they were a top team 20 years ago
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think finishing 6th a couple of times is what made their fans like this
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
27 years ago
Liverpool stampeded the opposing set of fans and, due to this, killed a whole mess of them and got English clubs banned from all Euro comps for 5 years (Pool for 6).
Yeah…Liverpool we’re not.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Oh thank goodness
my fears alleviated
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Granted, it's not tons
In 2009-10, getting to the QF was another 3.3mil Euros. It’s not tons, but it’s something.
Then getting to the semis was another 4.2
That’s enough to buy five 14 year old Malian strikers!
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
all of whom would end up to be world-class
and subsequently get Wenger booed, etc. etc. etc.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
I give ZERO FUCKS about what the board wants.
I give ALL THE FUCKS about Arsenal winning football matches and trophies.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously, Ben
Settlle down.
What comes first, the chicken or the egg? That’s the argument here. Without money, you can’t buy quality players. But without quality players, you can’t get deep in the competitions that pay the money that pads the coffers to buy the players. We’re not a club that spends recklessly, so we’re going to buy based on our revenue stream from the previous fiscal year. A large part of that, now that the Highbury flats have been sold and won’t factor into future earnings, is TV earnings.
As I stated earlier, I obviously want to win trophies, but on a much larger scale, for many reasons that have been talked about to death here, advancing in the UCL is much more important in my mind than worrying about advancing in the FA Cup.
As for your earlier argument that the FA Cup pays out per round progressed, you’re right. They pay, as this shows, significantly less.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 15, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
scheiße
is that really ALL you get? I mean I knew the CL paid more, but…wow.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 15, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Is reaching the CL group stages 15 years running not successful?
I hear what you’re saying, and I agree that Arsenal are not Accrington Stanley, and I know that the goal is to win a trophy in sports. I guess I just have a wider berth for what constitutes success. It’s just a fact that most football fans worldwide will never see silverware in their lives—and yet they turn up, year after year. Why? They won’t ever see a trophy…
It's a success but you're not going to be remembered as a successful team if you don't win anything
There’s a difference between a good team and a successful team.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
This discussion happens in baseball all the time
and I tend to think that I’d rather have a good team than a successful one. The line in baseball is “playoffs are a crapshoot” – you play 162 games in a season, and then you have to win the next 3 of 5 once and 4 of 7 twice in order to lift a trophy. This is a horrible way to define “success”. The 2001 Mariners won 116 games – the most in the modern era – and did not win the World Series, and yet I consider that the best team I have ever personally seen play. You don’t win 116 of 162 games by accident, but you can lose 4 of 7 pretty easily and you’re done.
And the FA Cup is the same, to me – if Arsenal don’t win the FA Cup, that does not mean they’re not a good team. Shiny tin pots are not the judge of quality.
I love the FA Cup, don’t get me wrong, but I’m OK with not winning it this year.
I'd be ok not wining it too.
But we’ve got to win something sometime and this is a good opportunity I don’t agree with placing a competition that we’re highly unlikely to win higher on the priority list than one we can.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
"we've got to win something sometime"
That’s the point I tend to disagree with. Why do Arsenal “have” to win something? There are four competitions Arsenal are in every year (League, FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League). 20 teams contest the league, 96 contest both the FA and League Cups, and 32 contest the Champions League. Each one only has one winner. Does that mean the other teams are not worthy of being called “good” teams (apart from the relegated teams in the Premiership, I mean)?
Winning trophies is not a birthright for players, nor is it for clubs. It’s an incredibly hard thing to do, and just because Arsenal haven’t done it for a while doesn’t mean they’re not a “good” team.
by pdb on Feb 14, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This a million times
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
We should win because that's the point of the game
As one of the top European clubs(if that is where you see Arsenal) our success should be marked with trophies. If we are capable of regualrly being in those competitions we should win some of them sometimes. I’m not saying it’s a birthright but it should be our aim because that’s where the team is.
Are we striving to comply with FFP so that we can be a really well run mid table team or is it for the long term success of the team as in winning things because we like winning?
Also I never said that a team can’t be good and not win things I said that there’s a difference between a good team and a successful team.
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by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
We're striving to comply with FFP so we still get to exist
The problem isn’t “trying to win,” it’s putting more eggs in the basket of a competition that’s mostly irrelevant aside from nostalgia (and my personal affection for it) than one that people actually still care about. If the FA Cup got us in the Champions League that would be a totally different story, but it doesn’t.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, you did
I said that there’s a difference between a good team and a successful team.
But by your definition above, a good team doesn’t win things and a successful team does:
you’re not going to be remembered as a successful team if you don’t win anything
That’s what I’m trying to say with all this – success is not or should not be purely defined by winning trophies. Winning is indeed the point of the game, but winning is also an incredibly hard thing to do, and the mere lack of winning a trophy does not mean a team is not successful.
No
what I said is that a good team doesn’t have to win to be a good team but a successful team is one that wins things. You disagree but you can’t say you had a successful flight you crashed and burned in the landing same way you can’t say that you had a successful season if you were in sight of winning then threw it all away.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure that "dying in a plane crash" is a good analogy for "not winning the FA Cup"
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
My point is that the finish is important
if we continue to not win anything year after year then where is the progress we’re not getting anywhere how is that successful. And now it’s hurting us what’s going to keep our best players around it’s not like we’re paying really high wages?
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Going to the semi-finals in the Champions League would be progress.
The Champions League brings in players. Arteta is here because of the CL, not because he thought it would give him a better chance at the FA Cup.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
But we're not going to win the CL anyway
so why not go for a win where we can get one.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Not with THAT kind of attitude!
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
I know you do...
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Um, we beat Barcelona last year
Go shove that in Man U and Madrid’s face.
Because winning the FA Cup doesn't matter!
I love it, I’d like to win it, but it’s an anachronism that survives mostly on the good graces of the English FA. I mean, come on.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Winning the Emirates Cup doesn't matter
The FA Cup is a serious trophy it matters.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
To whom?
Who’s moved teams to get a shot at the FA Cup?
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
My feeling is that the FA Cup matters to fans
but to players (for the most part) and the clubs, it really doesn’t, not anywhere near as much as the Champions League. It has sentimental value (and you’re right, certainly greater than that of the Emirates Cup or the Community Shield), but in terms of prestige and cash, there’s far less in 2012.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
The Champions League is the end-all, be-all
For clubs, for players, for fans. Advancing through the CL is much more difficult, and that much more rewarding for everyone, than going through the FA Cup.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Winning matters to players.
Obviously the FA cup is not as prestigious as the CL or the PL but players are after trophies.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Nobody really said they weren't
It’s just a question of “success”.
Would Matt Le Tissier look back on his career and think he’s failed?
I hope not
because he is awesome
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
I think the players on the team now would be happy to win the FA Cup.
I also think that players aren’t going to Real Madrid because they won the Copa del Rey last season. And I would put the FA Cup in that same general category.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
When teams count up the trophies they've won
they don’t just dismiss the FA cup as inconsequential domestic cups like the
fa cups aren’t the be-all-end-all but they’re meaningful. Why else would there be open top bus parades afterward?
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Anyway....
it’s been fun arguing with you guys. I have to get ready to go to class :cP
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by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
It absolutely matters.
Club success has always been measured by trophies. Money just keeps things ticking over.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
It's the only reason why Spurs have been mentioned with Eden Hazard
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Not progressing to the next round of the CL
is not the same as not being in it next year.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
"threw it away" implies that Arsenal operate in a vacuum, though
Other teams have the same goal as Arsenal – to win trophies – so it’s not like Arsenal consciously decide to not win. Their destiny every season is shaped by other teams as much as it is by themselves.
Hoe many games a season do we lose
because the other team is genuinely better than ours?
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
you could ask that question of any team, though
To take the most recent example, are Everton better than Chelsea? That’s the beautiful thing about sports – the “best” team (however you choose to define “best”) doesn’t always win. That’s what I mean when I say Arsenal don’t operate in a vacuum – sometimes an inferior team has a better day. That’s human nature at work, and it doesn’t mean Arsenal are a bad team because they lost to an inferior team.
Sometimes we lose due to our own faults
that aren’t lack of ability such as complacency or lapse in concentration or visible lack of effort for whatever reason.
I’m not talking about games where the other team just plays really well.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Not to mention how fine the margins are
we were within one bad call of knocking Barca—THE GREATEST TEAM OF ALL TIME IN THE HISTORY OF LIFE ON EARTH—out of the CL last year.
You can't spell "Arsenal" without "FFP"
Or something like that.
Anyway, the FFP wasn’t created to keep clubs from winning trophies. It was created to prevent clubs from overspending their revenue based on future earnings, thus creating all sorts of PortsmouthLeeds/Rangers situations from occurring. Arsenal have been practicing, essentially, the FFP for decades and been a top-of-the-table club all this time.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
"And it's Arsenal!
Arsenal FFP! We’re by far the greatest team, the world has ever seen!"
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think they're Swedish
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
We can win trophies and still be in compliance with FFP
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
But a big part of FFP, and a big part of attracting players to Arsenal is to finish in the top 4. I’m not saying that the FA Cup would reduce that, but, if we play guys on that cornfield in Sunderland and they get hurt, or if we have a replay and they get tired, or both, that affects our ability to finish in the top 4.
And foreign players care a lot more about CL than the FA Cup.
Arteta, it's all about the right pass it goes left to the left foot of VAN PERSIE
Proud member of Fusillade and The Short Fuse
by Aidan Gibson on Feb 14, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
And *SPOILER* all the good players are foreign
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Psychologically, the players need it.
Look at what winning the League Cup in ’87 did for that generation of players.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Where were you when I was arguing all by myself!?
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
I happen to love playing devil's advocate
but I thought that you were handling it OK
Thanks...
I try my best. Would’ve been better if I wasn’t the only one though :cP lol
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
AFK?
I’m not always on TSF. Terrible, I know, but thanks for fighting the good fight.
Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com
by Ben Schneider on Feb 14, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
And I'm not like, mad, or trying to start a fight
This is just one of my favorite topics to discuss in regard to sports. Sorry if I’m being a bit of a jerk.
You're not
I’m not trying to be a jerk either so if it seems that way, sorry.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure an FA Cup winning season is better than a QF season
is Portsmouth better than Arsenal? Is Birmingham? (don’t answer that)
Losing the Carling Cup was a huge blow, but it wasn’t because we didn’t get the trophy. It was because we lost to motherfucking BIRMINGHAM CITY, managed by a man who looks like a peanut.
by Ted Harwood on Feb 14, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
This is all just my opinion, of course
I mean, we probably just have to agree to disagree
by Ted Harwood on Feb 14, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
Alex McLeish does look like a peanut.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 14, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
The top hat, cane, and monocle don't help him much.
Now with mustache guarantee!
by HoodRiverDuck on Feb 14, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
It was the manner of the loss that deflated the team last year...
but that doesn’t mean that winning it wouldn’t have sparked the team to a better finish. At that point in the season I think we were in second we could’ve won the league if things hadn’t gone so pear shaped. Instead the team lost belief in itself and we ended up 4th. Winning a tittle gives a team confidence there’s no denying that.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
It also didn't help that the team's best player got hurt in that game
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but he wasn't out for long after that
that had little bearing on how we finished the season. Remeber how easily RvP would get injured before. Score a goal: out for two weeks :cP those days are behind us.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
But he wasn't injured in that game
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
have you seen the price of silver?!?
Chuck Norris doesn't need a bat.
he just roundhouse kicks the ball out of the park.
by bearcatcardfan on Feb 14, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
This is what I was thinking
Step 1: Win FA Cup
Step 2: Sell FA Cup
Step 3: Profit
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
great success
/borat
Chuck Norris doesn't need a bat.
he just roundhouse kicks the ball out of the park.
by bearcatcardfan on Feb 14, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I would like to see Yennaris
He did really well against Man U.
He played in the reveres today didn't he?
So he can’t.
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Why did you have to mention Barry Zito?
I started following soccer because that guy made me too depressed.
The Mariners just signed Oliver Perez to a minor league deal!
feel better? No? We still have Chone Figgins!
We paid Oliver Perez 36 million
Arteta, it's all about the right pass it goes left to the left foot of VAN PERSIE
Proud member of Fusillade and The Short Fuse
by Aidan Gibson on Feb 14, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
On purpose
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 14, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
Barry Zito is still owed $50 million
including a $7 million buyout after his 7 year deal is over. I don’t think I’ll be happy until he gets a minor league deal from the Orioles in 2014.
by TakeTheBlack on Feb 14, 2012 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
In response to that massive and messy debate above about winning the FA Cup vs making the next season'sCC
Sabrina I don’t want to sound confrontational, but don’t let the media get into your head. Who cares what they say? For all the hullabaloo about trophies. winning the FA Cup in terms of actual effect will only mean a morale boost to the players. But there are more important considerations at the top level of football: 1) Being monetarily successful and 2) Being able to attract star talent.
Sorry to say but the CC is WAAAAAY more meaningful on both counts than the FA Cup trophy. Arsenal has a good financial model and can probably survive financially without the CC, but that’s still large amounts lost. And that great financial model also can’t solve the second problem, which is that if we don’t qualify for CC next year, you can forget about the Hazards and Goetzes even bothering to consider joining our club unless an outrageous sum of money is offered (to the player’s wages, not the transfer fee). And you know Arsenal will not offer that kind of money even if they could afford to.
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It was never a question of wining the FA cup vs qualifying for the CL next season
I don’t see those as mutually exclusive at all. I understand the importance of qualifying every year. I’m not talking about prioritizing the FA Cup over securing 4th. But I don’t think we should put all our eggs into just getting through the 16 and neglecting the FA Cup which we have an actual chance of winning. Winning breeds more winning (or some such phrase) we have to start where we can to build that in the team. It would’ve been great to have done that last year win the Carling Cup but it didn’t happen. Winning a trophy isn’t just for the players it’s for us to. Would you not be happy if we won the FA Cup?
I don't even know what to put in here knowing Steve can just change it anytime he wants (the jerk) :cP also something about trolling CFC and WAGNH
by Sabrina Dessipe on Feb 14, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
i would be happy, but if i had to make a choice between playing my full first team and resting them for crucial league matches, i'd pick the latter
To be frank, the FA cup is not that important, and has nothing to do with league success. “Winning breeds more winning” only applies when the victory has significant meaning, meaning that the FA cup trophy simply doesn’t possess. Even if we win the FA, cup, people will only pay attention to the fact that we didn’t win the league. People will remember League championships for posterity. They won’t remember your FA cup trophies.
That’s just my personal opinion of course. But frankly after over a decade of watching EPL, I can sense how little the FA cup matters to people, and as a result, how little it matters to big clubs.
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The Short Fuse (Arsenal, EPL)
Sactown Royalty (Kings, NBA)
by silverace99 on Feb 14, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Off the top of your head, who won the Champions league in 2004?
Posterity doesn’t really remember too well.
by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 14, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Porto of course. Who is going to forget one of the weirdest CL final matchups ever?
But you’re misreading. I’m talking about how ARSENAL fans will remember Arsenal, not non-arsenal fans. Within it’s own fans, people quickly forget about cup trophies. They only remember the 2005 one because the media keeps blah blah blah blah-ing about it.
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The Short Fuse (Arsenal, EPL)
Sactown Royalty (Kings, NBA)
by silverace99 on Feb 15, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
I think what matters is what a team wins last
And you googled that champions league victory, now didn’t you?
Sound quality much better than the last one.
Captain, there are doubt''s...
by Match Day 5 on Feb 14, 2012 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Let's not forget it isn't just about money or trophies.
… Top players will often take less money to play for a winner. Advancing further in the CL does way more for Arsenal in that regard than winning the FA does.
Let Tottenham overpay for Hazard. We’ll get Goetze for half price. (I can dream, right?)
Alex Song - Krunk as Fuck!
Links doesnt work and I’d really like to listen. So pumped for tomorrow
This team will be the death of me.
I'll fix that
Arteta, it's all about the right pass it goes left to the left foot of VAN PERSIE
Proud member of Fusillade and The Short Fuse
by Aidan Gibson on Feb 15, 2012 7:16 AM EST up reply actions
So yeah, you can listen to it on this very page!
Arteta, it's all about the right pass it goes left to the left foot of VAN PERSIE
Proud member of Fusillade and The Short Fuse
by Aidan Gibson on Feb 15, 2012 7:16 AM EST up reply actions
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