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An Opinion on Arsenal, Wage Structures and the Future

How I View Arsenal

Arsenal, by definition and formality, is a club which it started out as such before became a lucrative business, much like how the sport of football evolved from amateurs to professionals, whose sole interest is to its fans, players and shareholders. It is my opinion that the club aims to achieve success on the pitch while maintaining financial stability and profitability in order to achieve long-term goals and ambitions, and Arsenal has a long history of doing everything possible to achieve financial excellence, starting with club’s move from their ancestral home of Woolwich to Highbury. As caretakers to the future of the club, the club should run by the Board as efficiently as possible and with an eye towards profit and self-sustainability, much like any responsible and successful business. Arsenal is unique both in England, Europe and the rest of the world in that they have managed to succeed on the pitch while turning profits almost every year, which has enabled the club to extend their reach worldwide without over-leveraging themselves with individual debts and benefactor loans that carry limited options for repayment (see: Liverpool under Tom Hicks and George Gillett; Manchester United under the Glazer family; Chelsea under Roman Abramovich; Manchester City under Sheikh Mansour). It is because of this why the Board, along with many who see the club in this light, has rebuked and publicly stated its opposition to the money of Alisher Usmanov, that the Russian’s view on how Arsenal should be operated stand in complete contrast to the club’s ethos and principals.

Star-divide

Arsenal and Arsene Wenger

Arsene Wenger has a history of unearthing talented youth players and giving them an opportunity to start in league, domestic cup and European matches, something other clubs of Arsenal’s stature both domestically and throughout the continent can’t provide or boast. As a result, Arsenal is often mentioned as a possible destination for the world’s best youth players. Arsenal’s youth academy, started in 1954 and currently overseen by Liam Brady, one of the finest players to ever wear an Arsenal shirt, (who also graduated from Arsenal’s youth academy), is regarded alongside Barcelona’s La Masia as the world’s best. It is due to this standing and success with its academy that will help Arsenal as UEFA ushers in Financial Fair Play (Note: While there are many loopholes that have arisen in FFP – one such being UEFA’s truth strength in preventing player transfers to clubs not in compliance with FFP - it is generally assumed that clubs across Europe have to change the way they conduct business). Under FFP, a club does not have to count investments made to their youth players and academy infrastructure, in order to encourage clubs to develop more youth from within their ranks as opposed to spending on transfers, but can count net transfer fees from the youth players as income generated. This is vital to Arsenal, since under Arsene Wenger the club has bought such youth players as Nicolas Anelka (for 500,000 pounds), Cesc Fabregas (2.25 million), and promoted schoolboy players into the first team ranks like Ashley Cole, only to later sell them for exponentially larger transfer fees. As clubs depend more on homegrown youth players, it is my opinion that Arsenal, due to their history of integrating the club’s youth players into the first time at a younger age, will still stand above the rest. This will only strengthen Arsenal’s standing within FFP, while becoming a destination for talented young players.

Arsenal, Transfers and the Wage Structure

Arsenal have done remarkably well since Arsene Wenger arrived in identifying successful players from leagues whose member clubs generate far less revenue (any league outside the top divisions in England, Spain, Italy, Germany, and France), talented players from clubs within the top divisions of those five countries but come from clubs that don’t generate as much revenue as the richer clubs within their respective countries, and players who are on the fringes of their clubs in those five countries’ top divisions. These players have a lower transfer fee attached to them, in general (since Arsenal technically have a slight advantage in that the fee to be agreed constitutes a large chunk of revenue for the selling club, in part due to Arsenal's outstanding scouting network finding the player in the first place - see: Joel Campbell), and the new players are given a wage that generally constitutes a raise from their previous clubs, but is generally less than what they’d get had they come through a situation not highlighted above (e.g., a star player from one of the big five leagues), and it falls within a strict structure that is congruent with their time of service and performance. Given that Arsenal is a club that has a significant amount of money and assets, there is room to increase transfer fees for a player of exceptional talent in order to win the player’s signature, but their wages still must fall within the club’s structure relative to their own standing. Arsenal, for the most part, don’t disclose the length of the contracts the players sign, but if the player(s) impresses enough, the club is quick to offer an extension of the contract along with a significant raise (see: Emmanuel Adebayor’s 100% raise in 2008) that still falls within the wage structure.

Faults with the Wage Structure as It is

Too many role-players on the squad have gotten raises too early in their careers based on promise versus actual output, which has increased the total wage bill to near the top of the league despite having zero players earning above 80,000 pounds per week (which is what Robin van Persie currently earns, the highest in the club). In addition, the wage structure hasn't increased enough to keep star players from leaving, but can be increased in the future as the club looks to renegotiate their shirt sponsorship and naming rights deals, which are widely looked at from an Arsenal standpoint as weak, as well as other commercial avenues and club assets not previously exploited.

The Wage Structure, its Harsh Realities, and why It Works

In theory, a wage structure works because it differentiates earnings between employees, or in this case, earnings between players. If wages go unchecked, there’s no ceiling and the club can’t enforce past precedence. Spending will spiral out of control as each new player arriving will demand more than the previous arrival in their hypothetical “category of talent.” The fact is that Arsenal can’t compete in regards to transfer fees and wages with old money clubs like Manchester United, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid and Barcelona, and nouveau riche clubs Manchester City and Chelsea at the moment (and the sadder reality is that it won’t be for another 5-6 years before clubs are required to be down to nearly zero losses for the accounting year, and again this is assuming no loopholes within FFP are found and exploited, such as City’s world record-breaking stadium naming rights deal, or that the FFP becomes toothless due to the upper echelon of clubs openly refusing to comply with the rules in place for FFP). Specifically, English clubs as a whole can’t compete with Real Madrid and Barcelona on the television front as those two clubs earn nearly five times more than EPL teams just in TV rights due to their ability to negotiate their own deals both domestically and internationally. Therefore, Arsenal must rely on finding talent that fits within Wenger’s tactics that comes comparatively affordable and who can be rewarded with extended contracts and raises based on performance, however the club and Wenger must do a better job at evaluating the talent they have on hand when it comes to extensions and wage increases. The club must develop youth, already a strong asset within the organization, in order to fill in for departures when spending decreases for a particular transfer window, whether by design or by need. The club is working within the same context in today’s world that it was when there was a time when there wasn't wealthy benefactors and club takeovers by the world’s richest families and men dotting the football landscape. Although Arsenal itself has seen a change in ownership, mainly going from a plural to a singular, the business model remains the same and it remains the steadiest in terms of long-term success and vitality. Build the core from within through the world’s best youth academy and young players; spend within means for talented players on the transfer market and reward outstanding individual performances with wage increases fit within the club’s financial structure and extended contracts, continue to profit and avoid over-leveraging of debts. The club has seen a drought in trophies over the past few years and a lot of that can be contributed to the exponential rise in spending from clubs armed with new cash that wasn’t generated by the club itself. However, the club has still finished in the top four of the league in those years without a trophy. The hope is that Arsenal has set themselves up better than anyone else when FFP starts to show through changes in behavior from the clubs most guilty of spending beyond what they organically generate. The reality is that the club is already there, that the club is being guided by players grown from within. How the players perform on the pitch…well that’s another story.

[Ed. note: Twin Cites Hawk originally posted this on Saturday evening. I've modified the date and time. -Ted].

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that bottom heavy wage structure is the biggest issue as you have pointed out

No regular business does that…it’s insane…real businesses use bonuses for short term performance instead, and upgrade wages based on a combination of merit and seniority.

Unfortunately it’s too late to fix our immediate problems. They can’t modify the current player’s wages; even when their contracts expire they will not accept wage cuts to reflect their actual value.

SBN Bloglist:
The Short Fuse (Arsenal, EPL)
Sactown Royalty (Kings, NBA)

by silverace99 on Feb 19, 2012 2:12 AM EST reply actions  

Frankly though, while not everything is Wenger's fault, I am now more leaning towards the camp that thinks he has to go.

Wenger’s abilities are more suited in the club background than on the pitch; he’s really not tactically astute, and more critically he doesn’t learn from mistakes; he doesn’t adapt. This is what separates him from Ferguson, much as I hate to say it. It’s time to find a coach who will actually coach the game, and perhaps move Wenger to a internal management position where his talents are still valid.

(Of course, this is just what I wish. The board has already given Wenger academic tenure. And I doubt he would step down to take a less spotlighted position with the club.)

SBN Bloglist:
The Short Fuse (Arsenal, EPL)
Sactown Royalty (Kings, NBA)

by silverace99 on Feb 19, 2012 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Wenger's abilities as a manager

Should not be confused with the fiscal philosophies of the club, nor should the belief that only Arsene can run the club within their intended structure.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 19, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah, I completely agree

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 19, 2012 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

My issue with the way Arsenal operate is the fact that they seem to want to be profitable

While that is certainly ownership’s right, I really don’t want to see a club I support showing profits at the expense of a fanbase. What I’d really expect as a fan is for the club to be striving for break-even financially. That will certainly involve seasons of both profit and loss, but it’s allowing the fan’s money to actually be reflected by the product on the pitch.

by Stephen Schmidt on Feb 20, 2012 12:48 PM EST reply actions  

Completely understand

This comes back to, in my mind, Wenger needing a David Dein-like executive (some may argue Dein himself) to continue pushing Wenger past his comfort zone.

I believe the interest and the money being discussed over last summer for Goetz and Hazard was real and legit, but that Wenger and the Board for whatever reason decided it wasn’t time. I can nearly guarantee that had Dein been alongside those negotiations we might have landed one of them. The club has the money to spend and was on the cusp of some rather significant transfers. Trust me, Ivan Gazidis is no David Dein.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 20, 2012 2:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I agree

I like that Arsenal are sustainable for the long term. However, I feel that all the money that currently goes into Kroenke’s pocket should go back to the teams. One thing about American owners, they don’t understand that sports shouldn’t be for profit (sustainable, yes, profit, no)

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

what?

Why do you think they buy the teams? for their health?

Of course it’s for profit…

SBN Bloglist:
The Short Fuse (Arsenal, EPL)
Sactown Royalty (Kings, NBA)

by silverace99 on Feb 20, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, no, it's because they want to be a part of soccer and win stuff

Look at Man Cities owners. They certainly don’t own the club for any sort of profit.

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Good article,

although I differ that Arsenal academy is regarded just as good as La Masia. Right now it isn’t. Ajax for instance has surpassed Arsenal. Dortmund is doing a great job too with their young players. Lyon also.
In fact, I don’t think Arsenal has produced as many players as Barcelona or even Ajax, who seem to have an unlimited cantera for many years. Look at Ajax teams since the 70’s when they dominated Europe, with players from their youth system, Keizer, Cruyff, Haan, Suurbier, etc…, They been producing quality players back then and it’s no different at the current moment . Most of Ajax first 11 right now came from Jong Ajax.
I’m by no means trying to discredit the job that has been done in the past years with Arsenal’s academy, but it’s not like Arsenal is producing some of the best young players at the moment. That speaks that there’s still work left to do at the academies and that Arsenal is far from being as good as La Masia or even Ajax.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 3:32 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think publicity is that much of an issue.

I also think Arsenal is good but you can’t deny things are not going well at the moment with the youth teams. That is a fact. Take a look at Ajax first team, Veermer, Alderweireld, Wan der Wiel Anita, Eriksen, Siem de Jong ,Daley Blind, Boerrigter, Nicolai Boilesen, etc… Look at Dortmund’s first eleven also, Schmelzer, Großkreutz, Kehl, Chris Löwe, Sahin, (when he was there), and of course, promising Mario Götze. Their work with their youth systems is paying off and Arsenal is not.
By the way, I never understood why Wenger never showed any slightly interest in Sahin. Madrid signed him for 5M, a bargain really, he could have been the perfect replacement for Cesc but again, Wenger who is widely considered as the “world’s best manager working with youngsters” and has a “clinical eye” for doing great signings like Park Chu Young, Arteta, etc.. missed on Sahin. I guess those 5M were too demanding for Arsenal management, but since Wenger never showed interest in Sahin, then his is fault and not the management for missing on Nuri. Big mistake by Wenger in my humble opinion.
I know Wenger is a legend of Arsenal, not to mention he is the most successful manager in the history of the club, but his credibility as Arsenal coach is coming to end, it’s not the bad signings, it’s not the injuries, Wenger just seems to have no idea of what to do next.
Look at United and what Sir Alex has done with not so flamboyant expensive signings, injured players and making Scholes coming back from retirement. They are currently 2th in the EPL and are going to fight until the last day of the season. They had and have important players injured the whole season, and yet they bounced back and are titles contenders.
Get over Arsenal bad management, bad signings, and injured players, that’s not an excuse for having a poor season. Wenger needs to step up his game now, or else then it might be better for him and Arsenal to part ways.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Arsenal was a rumored spot for Sahin a couple years ago, when BvB had no intention on selling him

His contract was due in 2013, so instead of dealing with uncertainty, he and Dortmund agreed to a transfer. Sahin basically chose Madrid more than anything.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 20, 2012 4:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

That makes sense. My bad.

Too bad Sahin choose Madrid only for Mourinho. He can’t even compete for a spot in the starting 11 for them. And you could even tell at the start of the season that he was going to be mostly a sub, even he would’ve been fit. It’s a real shame to see a player like Sahin on the bench. But that was his decision.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point, but I think it's a matter of subjectiveness

But Szeczeny (along with Fabianski), Wilshire, Frimpong, Coquellin, Miquel and Yennaris are all on the senior squad. Another somewhat recent grad is Fabregas. Not too shabby if you ask me.

I think clubs like Ajax, which I should have included since their academy has a great track record as well, have to bleed in their academy members due to a significant lack of strength in the transfer market compared to Arsenal.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 20, 2012 4:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

True,

but even though Ajax has the need of promoting and giving their youth players a chance because of their lack of financial power, and they have to instantly sell their youth figures to keep up with the club expenses, every year they keep on promoting youth players, and like I said their youth system seems unlimited, unlike Arsenal’s.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

you also have to remember that Ajax doesn't have quite as high competition as Arsenal

For Arsenal’s players to break into the line up, they have to be just a bit better.
Ajax is also the ancestral home of total football which spanned the tiki-taka crap that they now have at Barca.

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Well,

since Wenger took over Arsenal, his philosophy was to play attractive football similar to the Netherlands natl. teams of 74 and 78 and Barcelona. Tiki-taka if you may.
And In the end that’s the way football is meant to be played.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree on that last point

Tiki-taka is so (insert word of choice here) boring.

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

It is

boring but wouldn’t football just be better if all teams decide to play total football and play offensively rather than just play conservative?. There’ll be lots of goals rather than dull 0-0 draws.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

All teams do play total football at this point

Total football is the flexibility to be able to cover for any position. It was revolutionary in the 70’s. It’s not revolutionary any more.

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Your giving me the colloquial definition.

what I meant is all teams should just play all attack football for the whole 90 minutes a match lasts. not all teams try to play offensively when they’re visitors. most visiting teams just go out on the pitch and expect to get a draw and not concede goals. that’s even boring and duller than tiki-taka. at least if you play total football you try to score and create chances having the opponent team on their own half of the pitch defending. but of course it’s easier to destroy rather than try to construct. any team can just play defensively and try not to concede a goal for 90 minutes and counterattack if they have a slight chance. whereas creating goal scoring chances and attack with your outfield players is way more difficult than just defend and try to not get trashed for full 90 minutes.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

First, you have misused the word "colloquial"

Colloquial refers to informal language. I gave the actual definition of what the tactic is, which is the technical, or formal, definition. You, on the other hand, use total football in a colloquial manner. Yes, I do suppose the person who has not studied on the intricacies of the history of football tactics (M and W, anyone?) would misuse total football in this manner.
That said, have you ever played a game of soccer, like as a kid? Specifically, have you ever played against someone who is superior technically then you? I have. I actually did just the other night. Here’s what I do, I get in the kid’s face, I play more physically (I’m not a big guy, mind you) and I deny space. I must say, I rocked that kid.
That’s how it works in soccer. You don’t just attack. You weather the storm and take your chances. I’d argue that it’s better to have more competitive games then to have 11-0 blow outs. It’s no fun to lose 12-0 (it hurts a lot more when you lose 12-0 an hit the post)

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

And?

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know. I guess you now know what colloquial means

I mean, unless you make a counter argument, I’ve nothing more to add.

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I was talking about something hypothetically, you’re speaking about a mere pick up game. you’re just talking this to a whole new level. I’m talking about pro teams, professional players supposedly qualified to play the game. Not kids.
And of course there are players technically better than others, but if they’re pros then they’re definitely qualified to play at the highest level.
Perhaps I didn’t express things too well, but that’s my vision of football, play offensively and try to score goals, even if you have the Great Wall of China in front of you, you still attack them and try to break their defense. Obviously you don’t just attack unfounded, you need to have possession of the ball, then you circulate the ball, attack and try to score goals, and when you don’t have the ball, you obviously defend, then recover the ball and try to attack once.
Football is just a game, it’s the most beautiful game on Earth, you need to chill, enjoy it and stop taking things too seriously.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, I think I understand now

You want to see genuine attack: “go for goal” play. Ok. That makes things a bit more clear. I’m going to say 3 things, (mind you, these aren’t attacks or anything, it’s just discussion. Avoiding conflict, pdb, certainly hope this doesn’t qualify as part of the subthread)

Firstly, attacking play doesn’t necessarily relate to tiki-taka. Tiki-taka is all about possession, not necessarily attacking. You don’t blindly try and tear down the Great Wall of China playing like Barca, you walk around, looking for a crack, then let that crack grow due to accumulation, before lightly tapping on the crack and finding the bricks collapse, allowing you and your army of invading Mongol army to first seize China, then the entirety of Asia. I don’t think that’s what you mean by attacking football. I suspect you mean the flat out attack that Arsenal have been known for during the past few years (that’s what attracted me to the club) or the fast paced counter attack of Man U or Dortmund.

Secondly, soccer is such a simple game that all the basics that one can find in a pick-up game apply to pro soccer. I mean, look at the best players in the world, ever. Pele and Maradona played on the streets. So did Garrincha and Zidane. So, all my talk of playing is actually valid, even though I’m not a pro and I’m not playing against others who are that talented.

Thirdly, if all the teams played in the same style, hypothetically speaking, then wouldn’t that be a little boring? I mean, then all the players would have to fit into a certain mold, fitting into 1 of 11 spots. That robs a bit of the originality that players offer. Also, it means that every game will look the same. There is no battle of wits, or tactics, or in game realization that something is going wrong by the players. It would mostly be rote and more meaningless. All games would come purely down to who has the flat out better players, not so much who plays better together (I mean, everyone plays with the same style, right?). That would take away a lot of what I personally love about soccer. I won’t say that that applies to you, or anyone else. But differences define a lot of what happens in soccer.

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Blah, Blah, Blah

master of tactics, wannabe Mourinho, I ain’t reading your long writing, I’m tired of it, I’ll just pretend whatever you say is right, In this forum you’re the (insert word of choice here) master, the (insert word of choice here) boss, the one who knows everything, and I don’t want to compete for a single moment.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah,

Mr. Mourinho here, needs to be acknowledged for his master tactics, and because he is the one that knows everything.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 21, 2012 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Excuse me?
who the hell you think you are?, and who invited you in the first place. You just come here and insult me. Saying I’m annoying, in that case your just a freakin’ troll, just waiting for the time attack. If I annoy you then stfu, keep your comments to yourself, and I don’t know, perhaps watch baseball or support Bayern, instead of trolling and being fucking nosy, and meddling in things that doesn’t concern you. Troll.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 21, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Tiki-taka can be the dullest garbage out there

See: Spain in the last World Cup. Absolute snoozefest.

Germany’s counter-attacking, 4-2-3-1, by contrast, was awesome.

Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com

by Ben Schneider on Feb 21, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Germany plays

tiki-taka for some lapses too.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 21, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Not really.

Löw’s Germany doesn’t make possession an end in itself.

Teams look for styles that will increase their chances of winning. Violence aside (see: Stoke, Birmingham under McLeish), there is nothing objectively wrong with any style of football. That doesn’t mean I, you, or anyone else will want to watch every style.

Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com

by Ben Schneider on Feb 21, 2012 9:18 AM EST up reply actions  

US national team in World Cup '94

It was a beautiful defensive formation. Outstanding football. Pretty much never sent more than 1 player into the opposition half.

Captain, there are doubt''s...

by Match Day 5 on Feb 20, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That pretty much sounds like USMNT football all the way through Bob Bradley

Play defensive, then just lob the ball down the field and hope to God somebody connects on it

UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA DI Men's Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2008 & 2010 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions

by bmasson11 on Feb 22, 2012 2:36 AM EST up reply actions  

1)That's not quite fair

2)However you define Bradley’s tactics, they were moderately successful.

Managing Editor, OnceAMetro.com

by Ben Schneider on Feb 22, 2012 4:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmm

what I meant is all teams should just play all attack football for the whole 90 minutes a match lasts

This statement seems to assume that teams operate in a vacuum, and never have to react to what other teams do. If I were on a team that was trying to defend against all out attacking, you’re damn right I would – as much as I hate this phrase with a white-hot passion – park the bus (back in my day, kids, that was called “stout defending”, and Arsenal absolute masters at it). I would trip, I would shove, I would elbow; I would do whatever I could to disrupt that flow. My job as a defender is to stop that total football from happening; look at Spain in South Africa 2010. It was ugly, and Spain played in a way that you wouldn’t expect, but it worked.

by pdb on Feb 20, 2012 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

It was talking hypothetically,

of course that’s not gonna happen, you guys like taking things seriously, don’t you?

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You speak in absolutes a lot and that's what I challenge

When you say things like “all teams should” do something, and “that’s how football is meant to be played”, you have to be open to some critiques.

by pdb on Feb 20, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

And you shouldn’t believe everything people says. If you don’t like what I say then just say I don’t agree and that’s the end of the story. No need to get so hostile. You talk about respect people opinions yet you are making assumptions like your buddy Adnan of me be being ignorant. I ask for you to be more respectful and abstain from being to hostile.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not being hostile, I'm offering a contrary opinion

If you feel like I’m being hostile, I apologize, because that wasn’t my intent. I was merely challenging your assumptions.

by pdb on Feb 20, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, when did I say you were ignorant?

I merely corrected a mistake in your vocabulary. Don’t take things to heart on here, it’s easy to misunderstand each other.

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't need to be

a genius to tell you’re implying it.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't mean harm to you are anyone on here

Just chill for a sec. I really am not implying anything.

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

me?,

how come am I the one who needs to chill. you’re the one talking things too seriously.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude, calm down

Seriously. It’s not that big a deal, and I’d appreciate it if this subthread were to end now.

by pdb on Feb 20, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

dude,

I was just expressing my beliefs, did you read my comments?, Am I being derogatory, controversial or disrespectful?, no, just you and Adnan making a big deal out of this, I didn’t.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 20, 2012 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

You seem intent on inferring that there is an argument to be had here

and I’m trying to tell you there’s not. We are obviously not communicating successfully, but I promise you I did not think you were being derogatory, controversial, or disrespectful. Please do not infer things. I was just trying to let you know that nothing here is that big of a deal, it’s just people expressing opinions. You are, I am, Adnan is.

Those opinions do not align, and that’s fine – but you have to know that if people don’t agree with you, they’re going to say so. It’s not personal, it’s not an attack, it’s merely an expression of a differing opinion.

Nobody in this thread has acted badly, and we have both repeatedly tried to let you know that we’re not trying to “make a big deal” out of things.

There was a miscommunication upthread, we both attempted to clear it up, and that did not satisfy you. I’m sorry for that, but all I can do is repeatedly say we’re not “making a big deal” out of things. I promise you I’m not, and while I don’t speak for Adnan, I don’t think he is either.

That’s why I requested that this subthread die – it’s no big deal. Please don’t make it one. Thanks.

by pdb on Feb 20, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

You can speak for me when it comes to rules and such

I don’t ever want to get into a “fight” or to break any rules or anything

by Adnan Ilyas on Feb 20, 2012 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course not,

you don’t want to get into fights, you just start them, you like to tease and provoke, you attacked me verbally even though you don’t know me at all, you act all presumptuous like you’re the boss and know everything, just like Mourinho. Might as well change your allegiance and support Madrid, Chelsea or Man Utd. I don’t care. They could hire you as an assistant, master of tactics, since you act like you know everything about playing styles and tactical positioning.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 21, 2012 1:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Look, man

All that has happened here – throughout the whole thread – is that Adnan disagrees with something you wrote, and in turn posted some opinions that are contrary to your own. This is what TSF is here for – civil discussion between grownups. If you can’t handle that, maybe the internet is not for you.

Relax. Knock off the name calling.

by pdb on Feb 21, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Just shut up.

You’re now annoying, not simply debating

Alex Song - Krunk as Fuck!

by Midasknight on Feb 21, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Excuse me?

who the hell you think you are?, and who invited you in the first place. You just come here and insult me. Saying I’m annoying, in that case your just a freakin’ troll, just waiting for the time attack. If I annoy you then stfu, keep your comments to yourself, and I don’t know, perhaps watch baseball or support Bayern, instead of trolling and being fucking nosy, and meddling in things that doesn’t concern you. Troll.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 21, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Excuse me?
who the hell you think you are?, and who invited you in the first place. You just come here and insult me. Saying I’m annoying, in that case your just a freakin’ troll, just waiting for the time attack. If I annoy you then stfu, keep your comments to yourself, and I don’t know, perhaps watch baseball or support Bayern, instead of trolling and being fucking nosy, and meddling in things that doesn’t concern you. Troll.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 21, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

my bad

my coment was directed to the troll here. not you pdb.

Once a Gunner, always a Gunner

by javi92 on Feb 21, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Please don't read things into things

Adnan offered a reasonable explanation. As did I. Nobody has a hidden agenda here, it was a miscommunication that we both tried to clear up. No need to start a fight.

by pdb on Feb 20, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

The issue is how investment?

We can’t really change how the club is run financially, but the question of the fan is how investments effect the team and thus have a knock on effect. No CL $$ can mean (a) spend less on team to make sure the club does not operate at a loss or (b) spend more on the team so that the club earns more in the long term and makes it back to the CL. Unfortunately, I think the club is running on the former rather than latter lines …

by Teddie on Feb 20, 2012 3:49 PM EST reply actions  

Anyway...

Along with the AST meeting that occurred last night, the monthly board meeting this week and the expected release of the financial results, it should be interesting to see how much of my opinion changes if, as the AST stated last night, the club could be hurting more than many think if we miss out on the CL next season.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 21, 2012 9:56 AM EST reply actions  

Certain supporters have to

We are those such supporters, Madrid, Chelski and ManC fans are not.

"I spent 90 percent of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted!"

by JaviLouis on Feb 21, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

This era is no different from any other.

Any time a team asks someone to pay for something (tickets, swag, new stadium, parking garage, web video or TV sports package) the consumer should always care if that something is worth paying for. If those dollars are being used for something worthwhile.

Captain, there are doubt''s...

by Match Day 5 on Feb 21, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Indeed we are

I like reading and doing research on the financial side of sports in general, so I don’t hate it in that sense. What I hate, though, is that we’ve seen as fans of the sport what’s happened when clubs fail the fans on the business side of things.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 21, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sorry, but I feel the top clubs will pressure for concessions with this whole

fair play business. They will force some rule changes/augmentations to keep themselves from getting harmed by their financial irresponsibility rendering the whole idea mute. It’s a good idea, but I think the rich clubs will flex their muscles when the time comes. I hope I’m wrong, but I feel a bit cynical of the whole thing.

"I spent 90 percent of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted!"

by JaviLouis on Feb 21, 2012 11:16 AM EST reply actions  

You're right to be cynical

FFP has all the hallmarks of being a complete joke. But we shall see.

by pdb on Feb 21, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

If FFP ends up collapsing due to collusion among clubs to do so

UEFA is toast, and Arsene Wenger’s prediction of a super league comes true.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 21, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

It almost did happen, and we were a part of it

Remember the G14? I see the same threats from certain clubs coming through.

"I spent 90 percent of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted!"

by JaviLouis on Feb 21, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

During the existence of G-14

There was lots of talk about them linking up to create their own super league, but talks never got past that, talks.

The G-14 was created solely for the clubs, who provided their players to international tournaments, fair and honest payment from the soccer confederations in the case the players got injured (which is something I vigorously agree with). There’s a reason why you constantly hear noise from Wenger about international selections and the over-use of his players.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 21, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

As much as I would fear a super league...

It’s actually quite an efficient model on paper. A lot of the theories that the larger clubs have, wanting to combine into a super league, has many of it’s derivatives from the major American sports leagues, especially the cash loaded monster of the NFL. Considering that all of the major teams are located practically in Western Europe, they could technically play each other, gain huge crowds and profits from their worldwide and continental popularity, minimize overuse of players for multiple tournaments, and they could travel efficiently and quickly to each city, given that Western Europe is roughly a quarter of the size of the United States. The only thing standing in the way of that is the traditional and current run model of club football by individual nations, and the nationalized connections that clubs have with its fans. Fans right now of larger, but smaller clubs like Newcastle, Valencia, Napoli, Breman, etc. would instantly be opposed to the idea of a super league consisting of the major large market clubs, but would they realistically outnumber the fans of those major clubs that wouldn’t really mind being part of a super league, facing the likes of Barcelona, Milan, and Arsenal on a week by week basis? I’m not sure, but I would have my doubts

UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA DI Men's Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2008 & 2010 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions

by bmasson11 on Feb 22, 2012 2:52 AM EST up reply actions  

If there's any super league that's created in the future

It’s going to be created 1) for maximum profits (obviously) and 2) to better control their players international duty obligations. The only real way to do that, in my opinion, is to break away entirely from the national governing bodies.

It could also be much, much bigger – this hypothetical league, that is – than anyone thinks. In fact, I think there’s more incentive for clubs that only have a couple internationals on their roster as compared to a Real Madrid; the theory being that those couple of players are so vital to the team’s performance that the club is even more hesitant and nervous to release them for national duty.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 22, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I sincerely think that a European Super League would be the most boring thing to happen to European football ever and I wouldn't watch it

Because that league would almost certainly be a closed league; there would be no entry or exit except by permission of the big clubs, so you’d get the same teams playing each other every single season. Which is no different than a current league, so why bother except for the cash?

One of the things I like about Arsenal v Barcelona is that it doesn’t happen every year; make it happen twice a year and it becomes Arsenal v Newcastle. Fun, but not special. No thanks.

by pdb on Feb 22, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

second

Captain, there are doubt''s...

by Match Day 5 on Feb 22, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree as well

Doesn’t mean the men behind the scenes will feel the same way, though.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 22, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

They absolutely will not because all they will see is euros and pounds

That same vision led to the creation of soccer the Premier League, and since greed knows no bounds and since profits are leveling off, they’re looking for the next money trough to slurp from. At this point, that trough pretty much has to be a European Super League – it’s an idea that’s existed since the early 90’s, and an expanded Champions League has only delayed it.

by pdb on Feb 22, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Hopefully Pounds since, yeesh, the Euros are taking a battering!

But anyway, yes I’m with you. The only issue is getting Madrid and Barca on board, since they’re basically printing money with their self-negotiated TV deals. Otherwise, I think there’s incentives for the bigger clubs outside of England, especially in Italy, to join forces in order to gain a larger chunk of TV money.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 22, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

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